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On this newest episode of the FixSA podcast, Songezo Zibi says in a 12 months when the ANC has its elective convention there may be little or no governing that goes on.
He believes to repair South Africa a basic redesign of politics is required, and it’s excessive time the prime fifty or so enterprise leaders obtained right into a room to pressure the tempo.
Below is the full transcript of Jeremy Maggs’s interview with Zibi.
JEREMY MAGGS: Not too way back, our visitor wrote an essay that mentioned the disaster that South Africa is dealing with is “a golden opportunity to define the country’s progressive politics anew, ditching the old ideological dogmas whose preoccupation is contestation to defeat the other at the expense of progress on issues where there is broad social agreement”.
It seems like he may need some good concepts on how you can restore issues.
Welcome to the Moneyweb podcast Fix SA. My identify is Jeremy Maggs. Just to remind you, in the coming weeks our company might be requested how we are able to make issues higher. How will we enhance issues? How in the shortest house of time can we grow to be a aggressive and a profitable nation? That’s what all people desires.
Songezo Zibi has greater than 20 years of company expertise, throughout which era he has been a communications and company affairs skilled. Prior to becoming a member of Absa as head of communications, he was the editor of Business Day, and [is] now the convener, the chief cook dinner and bottlewasher, I believe, of a assume tank – he’ll appropriate me if I’m unsuitable – of an idea known as the Rivonia Circle. So how would he repair South Africa?
Let me get that proper, initially, Songeza. Are you comfy with the phrases ‘think tank’?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Oh, sure, I’m. We’re a assume tank with frills, bells and whistles as a result of we’re completely different, as a result of we work on options throughout quite a few areas. So I’m very comfortable to be right here to speak about how you can Fix SA.
JEREMY MAGGS: I’m wanting ahead to speaking about a few of these options. But only a fast criticism, if I could. I spoke to a few individuals whom I advised I used to be going to be speaking to you, and so they mentioned, ‘Oh, not another talk shop!’ Is that what the Rivonia Circle is about? Is it a bunch of good guys getting round a desk and speaking, or is it greater than that?
SONGEZO ZIBI: No, it’s completely greater than that. One of the choices we took early on is that we’re going to be solutions-focused. But individuals have gotten to grasp that in order to reach at sensible, workable options you’ve obtained to do fairly a little bit of speaking. In our case we’ve been doing a variety of listening, really, relatively than speaking, which I’m fairly comfortable to share as we now have this dialog, listening very intently, in order that after we do resolve to supply concepts and take motion they’ve as a lot consensus and credibility as doable, as a result of that’s what we’ve [not] had in South Africa.
We’ve [South Africa] had a scarcity of credibility proper throughout the board. As a outcome, the issues we’ve tried to do have been hotly contested and simply by no means get wherever.
JEREMY MAGGS: You can pay attention for so long as you need, you possibly can try to attain that consensus, however you’ll agree with me that that clock is ticking, [and] that in some unspecified time in the future you’ve obtained to place up your hand and say: ‘Well, here’s the blueprint. We have reached the consensus, now we’re going to spring into motion.’ What would the springing into motion be?
SONGEZO ZIBI: We are literally in that part of motion, Jeremy, at this second. We’ve simply launched one thing known as the Rise Campaign. South Africans must recognise what the basic downside is. I do know individuals like to speak about technical options and this coverage possibility and an enabled state and that kind of factor. We’ve obtained to be trustworthy with ourselves.
The politics is South Africa’s greatest impediment in phrases of the financial system, in phrases of social progress, in phrases of absolutely anything that we wish to do – together with the world competitiveness of the nation.
We have the unsuitable individuals at the helm. People in enterprise – and I come from enterprise, Jeremy – have chosen to have this dialog solely in personal. But truthfully, they’re dealing and hanging their hopes on individuals they wouldn’t rent as center managers in their corporations. And they comprehend it.
So we’ve obtained to repair the politics, no dilly-dallying and beating round the bush. Therefore, the Rise Campaign has obtained, as one among its core tenets, ensuring that we get that political change from 2024 onward. And then the sort of issues individuals complain about and say authorities shouldn’t be doing and so on, and so on – ‘we’ve made hundreds of pages of submissions to authorities and nothing will get executed’ – then they will get executed since you want a special calibre of politician.
JEREMY MAGGS: So are you a pressure of affect at the second, or in some unspecified time in the future do you set up your hand and say ‘we’re a celebration’ as properly?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Where we at the moment are is that the Rivonia Circle goes to proceed being the non-profit that it’s. The Rise Campaign goes to be an animal of its personal that turns into a political motion that contests elections and so forth, whereas the Rivonia Circle continues on its path. What the Rivonia Circle has executed, in essence, is laying the foundation by way of its work for a cohesive political various that may contest elections.
JEREMY MAGGS: Lots of organisations reminiscent of yours have risen earlier than, and I like the identify ‘Rise’, however they’ve additionally fallen. What makes you completely different, do you assume? What’s going to present you the traction that you just so need?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Jeremy, let me offer you an instance, and I’m going to criticise my former colleagues in enterprise or the elites – and I rely myself as one among the elites in South Africa. The method in which we now have thought and framed options to a few of the issues is outmoded and it tends to observe what the individuals at the Union Buildings observe.
Now, should you take a look at the unemployment and financial downside, Jeremy, 70% of the individuals with out jobs in South Africa would not have matric.
I’m not certain what Ebrahim Patel with giant industrial society desires that he desires to do, that enterprise flocks repeatedly to talk to about beneficiation and all of those sort of issues. What does that remedy for the one that really can’t get the most elementary job as a result of they didn’t end matric?
The Department of Education was in parliament in October, and mentioned the college dropout fee is – anticipate it – 48% or 52%. If you possibly can’t remedy that downside, you might be then not going to have the ability to be aggressive, to have the sort of affect that you just wish to have. And due to this fact, and right here’s the place the framing wants to vary, we are able to’t have individuals in enterprise and different sectors solely assembly with Ebrahim Patel. Surely, absolutely in the dialog there must be Blade Nzimande or the minister of upper training and the minister of fundamental training.
Business has obtained to get into the behavior of interrogating how we’ve structured our expertise improvement programme vis-à-vis the fundamental training space. They don’t wish to go there as a result of it doesn’t have something to do with enterprise. And these are the sort of options, a special framing of options, that we’re arising with.
JEREMY MAGGS: It’s additionally a lot simpler and maybe extra palatable to sip the big-vision Kool-Aid than go and get soiled and focus on curricular and lecture rooms and fundamental companies, I assume.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Jeremy, we should body questions as merely as we are able to. Why are so many children not finishing college, and what occurs to these children? Are we ever going to create sufficient jobs for them? Alternately then, if we settle for that we don’t wish to do something about that downside, what sort of rudimentary early twentieth century financial system will we wish to construct in order that we are able to have someplace the place they will work, and the way aggressive or uncompetitive would that financial system be?
We don’t wish to body questions in that method as a result of it’s too troublesome. It takes us to the realm of politics. Of course it should.
JEREMY MAGGS: I wish to reference in a second your name to motion then, so far as enterprise is anxious. But I’ve framed our dialog on the essay that you just wrote that I featured in my introduction. You mentioned, in half, we’re actually on our personal, we should take very clear steps to defend the Republic between now and 2024. What do you imply if you say ‘we are truly on our own’? Songezo Zibi, that’s terrifying. How do we discover ourselves on our personal?
SONGEZO ZIBI: We needs to be terrified. We are sitting with a snake in the room; we’re pretending that it’s not there. Jeremy, you’ve coated financial system and politics for a really very long time. We know [that] in a 12 months when the ANC has obtained its elective convention there may be little or no governing that goes on. The persons are not in the workplace in any respect. They’re on the market campaigning. We know this, as a matter of truth.
Additionally, Jeremy, lots of them are embroiled in scandal. They are both showing at commissions, they’re beneath investigation, they’re having felony prices towards them and so forth, and the major preoccupation politically for them is escaping accountability.
We know this. Let’s not faux this isn’t the case. We see them on TV and in newspapers and so forth on daily basis.
Additionally, Jeremy, we now have, if we take a look at simply the previous few weeks, what [have] been the essential subjects of dialogue in the prime decision-making construction of the ANC – the step-aside rule, it’s been Phala Phala and so forth. Come on, Jeremy, in case you are a shareholder and you might be watching an organization spend its time combating between executives and the board…
JEREMY MAGGS: With little consideration being paid to Stage 4 blackouts.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Right, proper. So we should name issues by their actual identify. The nation is on autopilot. It shouldn’t be clever to hope that President Cyril Ramaphosa is the one messiah who’s going to show issues round. It’s clear that he’s not.
There is not any enterprise that has obtained hope as its technique. It is not sensible to me, and but that is the place we discover ourselves.
Therefore, in that context I actually should problem all people who’s listening to this podcast to query the position they’ve performed in pretending that issues will not be as critical as they’re, both implicitly or explicitly – even when they don’t say so. What’s clear by way of our collective inaction is that we don’t assume issues are critical sufficient. But it’s not simply electrical energy, Jeremy, it’s water, proper? It’s Transnet choking the financial system. Businesses is complaining all the time.
JEREMY MAGGS: The listing is countless.
SONGEZO ZIBI: The listing is countless.
JEREMY MAGGS: And overarching all of this, you go on to say we now have to speak about having to simply accept political violence. Let me say that once more: we now have to speak about accepting political violence. Is it your opinion that we’re past any sort of resolution so far as that’s involved? You go on to say we’re run by felony gangs. I imply, at that time is it too late to drag issues again?
SONGEZO ZIBI: No, it’s not too late. It all relies upon. We’ll speak, Jeremy, about why I’m saying it is a golden alternative, by the method, as a result of a disaster is determined by what we make of it. It could be a enormous alternative for transformative motion, however you’ve obtained to be courageous.
JEREMY MAGGS: But there’s a nice line between disaster and disaster.
SONGEZO ZIBI: You’ve obtained to be daring, in fact. But let me speak about the political violence. Jeremy, ANC councillors and different individuals inside the ANC have been killed – in KZN largely, but additionally in the Eastern Cape the place I used to be born and the place I thought-about [that] my residence. So in different phrases, inside the context of the ANC itself these guys will not be afraid to take one another out after they really feel the one is threatening the different or threatening their pursuits.
We face a state of affairs in 2024 when the ANC could be very more likely to get lower than 50%. In phrases of our personal polling it will likely be fortunate to get 41% or 42%.
JEREMY MAGGS: And there’s inherent hazard in these numbers.
SONGEZO ZIBI: There’s inherent [danger]. If these guys kill one another, Jeremy, come on, what about the people who find themselves exterior of that organisation? Do we expect that they’re going to say, ‘Oh, this party or this person who’s threatening my curiosity shouldn’t be in the ANC; I’ll allow them to do no matter they need’. That’s Utopia. We must cease selecting to be naïve about this stuff, as a result of Abahlali baseMjondolo have been killed. For a few years their management in KZN and auditors ……12:12 and so forth have been killed over time. So political violence past the ecosystem of the ANC is a really particular risk.
JEREMY MAGGS: So, Songezo Zibi, should you’re saying then that the greatest downside we’re dealing with – and also you mentioned it earlier – is politics, why are we unable to return collectively as a nation and repair it? Is the divide of cooperation now too large for any type of collegiality?
SONGEZO ZIBI: There are few causes, Jeremy. The first is that there was an acceptance that the ANC is the convener of various sectors of society, whether or not it’s carrying its authorities hat or it’s carrying its party-political hat, as a result of it has been the centre of what’s known as ‘the progressive movement’. And so all of us conform to be convened by ANC ministers, by the president and so forth.
But Jeremy, it is a 1987 motion. In 1987 or 1985 enterprise in South Africa, which was solely white in phrases of the energy construction, took a call to say the National Party and PW Botha will not be the option to the future. We want to seek out different South Africans who need –
JEREMY MAGGS: They obtained onto an aeroplane, didn’t they?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Got onto an airplane and went to see the ANC in exile and others. What is at the moment’s model of that motion? It takes initiative, Jeremy, it takes bravery. It takes boldness to say the nation is method too vital than my considerations about what the powers that be – whose tenure is non permanent and can quickly finish – are going to try to do to me.
JEREMY MAGGS: You go on to say, Songezo Zibi, that South Africa must signal an ethical contract.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Of course.
JEREMY MAGGS: What is that?
SONGEZO ZIBI: One of the issues I say in the similar piece, Jeremy, is that we have to outline what binds us collectively. In my view what binds us collectively are the values of our Constitution – not simply the statutes, the values of our Constitution.
JEREMY MAGGS: Please don’t use the phrase ‘resilience’, as a result of we’re getting very uninterested in that phrase ‘resilience’.
SONGEZO ZIBI: You know, being powerful could be a dangerous factor as a result of it means you tolerate a variety of nonsense, and I don’t agree with that. So principally we consider that the South African Constitution is social-democratic in nature. What does that imply? What are the values of social democracy? They are freedom, they’re equality, they’re justice, they’re solidarity. And I believe you possibly can add a fifth one in the South African context, particularly in mild of our latest historical past. You say integrity.
Here’s a query. Can we construct a consensus round these values? Could we proper throughout social gathering political strains and enterprise pursuits and so forth? I believe if we did we’d take all of those and name them ubuntu as properly, as a result of they resonate with some.
JEREMY MAGGS: And your competition is that there’s that prepared majority to do this?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Of course there may be.
JEREMY MAGGS: What are they afraid of?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Here’s the factor, Jeremy. As any individual who spent the final 12 months in all types of locations from Camps Bay to Qumbu in the Eastern Cape and so forth, the individuals I discovered are prepared to maneuver tomorrow to drive political change.
JEREMY MAGGS: But why aren’t they doing so?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Hang on, cling on. The individuals in the villages, in the townships and the semi-urban areas, these guys don’t wait. They wish to transfer. Here’s what individuals say. They say: ‘How are you going to succeed, you?’ Back there they are saying, ‘What are we doing tomorrow?’ That’s the distinction.
And should you settle for that in any society the elites transfer the cheese, you’ve obtained a disconnection between individuals who don’t wish to take duty and say, ‘What are you as Songezo going to do?’ and thousands and thousands who say, ‘What are we going to do?’
So right here’s what we now have executed at the social compact……16:16 as a result of what you then find yourself with, you’re going to finish up with the plenty who desire a sure agenda and Johnnies-come-lately who’re the elites, who thought it was only a Songezo factor the place it is advisable to drive this. And that’s our downside.
That’s why we’re beginning at the degree of values, as a result of all of us want to select about whether or not these values characterize who we expect we’re.
JEREMY MAGGS: What then is the components for coalescing, then, these two very disparate teams who’ve such various agendas?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Let me share with you what we have really been doing. We haven’t simply been speaking to particular person organisations in villages and folks and people and so forth. We’ve additionally been very deliberate in talking to business-interest teams at an area degree and at a regional degree. And saying that you just –
JEREMY MAGGS: These are small chambers of commerce, that sort of factor?
SONGEZO ZIBI: I’ll come to the rich individuals as properly, and the corporations. We can speak about that as a result of I do have some views that folks don’t like, however we should have the dialog.
So these guys are the guys who used to ask the ANC into their house and platform them. They desire a completely different dialog now. That’s how we’re capable of get into that dialog as a result of they don’t have the deep pockets to cushion themselves from load shedding and water and these sorts of factor and [for] shopping for a diesel generator.
JEREMY MAGGS: To your level, they’re on their very own.
SONGEZO ZIBI: They’re on their very own, in order that they wish to transfer, proper? The guys who’re capable of spend an additional R3 million right here and R5 million to airfreight issues whereas Transnet is falling aside, nonetheless say, ‘Ah, I hope we get a better leader of the ANC’. That’s the distinction.
So that’s what we’ve additionally recognised, and we should be trustworthy, Jeremy, why this 1987 second shouldn’t be being captured in the method that we might in 1987 or enterprise might. You had a super-concentrated financial system again then. The homeowners of the belongings and the wealth additionally occurred to be the individuals who have been largely operating these belongings, the ……18:18 excessive miles …… and people sort of individuals. That’s a truth.
The South African financial system has modernised and deconcentrated, and due to this fact what you find yourself with are extremely paid managers of different individuals’s belongings. That’s what executives of JSE-listed corporations are and due to this fact they’re naturally constrained. They can’t take arbitrary choices to say, politically we’re going to go this fashion, as a result of shareholders are complicated, they’re from right here and abroad and that sort of factor.
Unfortunately this actuality of recent enterprise has additionally meant that you’ve got a bunch of people that management an enormous supply of the financial system, who’re infinitely indecisive and unclear in phrases of the place they assume the nation must be, as a result of they’re making an attempt to handle a number of pursuits. That’s the actuality of being an govt in a listed firm, and I’ve labored in listed corporations all my life. That’s a truth.
So you possibly can’t ask – and I’ll point out Sim [Tshabalala] as a result of we all know one another – you possibly can’t ask Sim to make a particular assertion about politics as a result of his chairman goes to telephone him and ask him, ‘What are you talking about?’ It’s simply completely different.
JEREMY MAGGS: Just for context, you’re speaking about Sim Tshabalala, the first visitor on the Fix SA podcast.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Yes. I’m speaking about Sim. That’s a actuality. What I discover is that prime internet value South Africans who’ve actual pores and skin in the sport – not that Sim doesn’t, he does, and he actually cares about South Africa and is massively patriotic, I do know him – these individuals are inclined to have a special dialog, it’s much less tentative. They’re like, ‘Hey man, this can’t go on, one thing’s obtained to be executed,’ and that sort of factor. And due to this fact you possibly can’t discover much less dilly-dallying…….20:01
Therefore I believe what enterprise has to resolve is how you can get round the realities of its personal shareholder and governance dynamics in order to drive a cohesive political agenda.
JEREMY MAGGS: We’ve reached the crux of the dialog then. What is the name to motion, notably so far as enterprise is anxious? You’ve checked out small enterprise operators, you’ve talked about the massive corporates, the multinationals. Practically, what’s the name to motion then in order to grab on that 1987 second?
SONGEZO ZIBI: This is what I’d do, and do it publicly – or a minimum of say publicly that we’re going to do it. I’d say Busa, BLSA and all of those organisations must say [that] on such and such a day we’re going to meet to debate the political state of affairs in the nation, as a result of it’s untenable. While we don’t know what the consequence of that dialog goes to be, we have to determine a method out of right here as a result of we’re liable for thousands and thousands of individuals’s jobs in South Africa. We’re liable for billions in shareholder cash. We’re liable for a complete bunch of issues. What we all know is that the whole lot we’ve tried over the final 15 years simply has not produced the outcomes that South Africa ought to have.
We are going to have that dialog. We will see what the consequence is. It’s a daring step as a result of it defines a transparent agenda. You make your self publicly accountable and also you fortify your self towards any individual who says, ‘Oh, they went to meet in secret,’ and this sort of factor.
Now they will come out with a broad decision, however I believe that bravery to say we’ll meet on our personal with out Pravin Gordon and Ebrahim Patel or Cyril [Ramaphosa], and are available to our personal choice about what to do with this untenable political state of affairs in the nation.
JEREMY MAGGS: What you’re saying is that it’s time they throw down the gauntlet.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Of course they need to throw down the gauntlet. Listen, Jeremy, this nation has been propped up by the personal sector and civil society. We know this. Were it not for the NGOs and enterprise, the nation would’ve lengthy [ago] sunk into the drain.
JEREMY MAGGS: We’ve obtained two inquiries to go, as a result of I’m very cognisant of time. Whenever we file this I come again to the complete idea of Fix SA.
What would outline, in your opinion, in the very brief time period – and let’s acknowledge it’s not going to occur throughout this elective time, however in 2023 – what would represent a few short-term wins in order to begin the strategy of fixing?
SONGEZO ZIBI: I’d recommend that these in the enterprise sector – and never essentially those that head up the chambers however the captains of enterprise – like Fani Titi at Investec and Sim Tshabalala and so forth – must on their very own resolve that they’re going to formulate along with their companions –
JEREMY MAGGS: It’s most likely about 50 people, am I proper?
SONGEZO ZIBI: There are most likely about 50 people. Let’s say the prime 40-plus different privately owned important enterprises. They must say we’re reaching out to organise labour past Cosatu, we’re reaching out to civil society organisations to say what the deal we select to have is, and what we consider goes to result in a components that recovers this financial system and reveals financial justice and so forth. We are going to do that on our personal with out being convened by the ANC or authorities. That’s vital as a result of, Jeremy, that deal or that broad settlement that comes out of that isn’t ……23:55 to the ANC dropping energy. It allows actors in the financial system to interact with no matter political buildings emerge on the foundation of very clear rules, very clear priorities, and so they’re capable of extract on behalf of the financial system and society a transparent pound of political flesh.
JEREMY MAGGS: But an strategy like that’s fraught with danger, as a result of little doubt the ANC will cry betrayal, the EFF will play the white-monopoly capital card, the Democratic Alliance will really feel fully marginalised. So that comes with danger, doesn’t it?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Tough, powerful. What are they going to do? Shut down these corporations. What are they going to do? Tough. I mentioned we must be daring. We must develop some, you understand –
JEREMY MAGGS: I believe I do know the a part of the anatomy that you just’re on the lookout for.
Last query. You’re a younger man, however I put this query to all of my company. When you’re speaking to your kids and even your grandchildren, let’s say in 20/25 years’ time, what’s going to you inform them about the time that you’re residing in proper now? But extra importantly, what’s their position in carrying the baton?
SONGEZO ZIBI: I’m hoping to inform them that I managed to not lose the baton, and that baton is out there for them to take ahead. Right now we’re liable to dropping the baton to start with as a result of we don’t wish to be daring and discover one another and create the options. That’s what I’m afraid of.
JEREMY MAGGS: In that very same essay that I referred to, which is on the Daily Maverick if I’m not mistaken, Songeza Zibi additionally says – and I quote – ‘The important thing is to be clearheaded about the common threats we face, our continuing priorities and to find ways for patriotic South Africans to work together’.
Songeza, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us on Fix SA. My identify’s Jeremy Maggs. Thank you for listening.
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