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JEREMY MAGGS: The Chief Justice Raymond Zondo has come under fire over his observations about the lack of movement on his state capture recommendations. Both Parliament and the ANC have hit back though, but since then, Parliamentary representatives have met with the Chief Justice. Stefanie Fick is the Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse (OUTA) executive director on accountability, and she joins us now. A very warm welcome to you. So this seems to have become a debate about timing, process and procedure and not the issue of corruption itself. What’s your view?
STEFANIE FICK: I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think PMG (Parliamentary Monitoring Group) also gave out a report, it’s a tick-box exercise for Parliament. They could really have taken these recommendations to heart, look at why these recommendations were made, and they could have done something about it. But even the press statement, what I thought at the end is what you’re telling me is that you’re doing something, but you are quite confident that everything is in place.
So why did state capture happen? If you are not going to change a lot after the recommendations and the whole state capture period, then what Zondo has said rings very true, even truer now that you’ve decided to share some of your dealings in Parliament with the public.
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JEREMY MAGGS: Parliamentary representative saying in their response to the criticism that there is in fact a comprehensive implementation plan on the recommendations, but the subtext is it is going to take some time. Are we not being a little bit unfair?
STEFANIE FICK: No, no, I really think that what is Parliament telling us. So firstly, they decided to do the press statement or press release or talking to the public by saying this is how far we are. But I still couldn’t pick up that they are really putting some effort into some of the recommendations. If you think about establishment of a committee to oversee the president and presidency, there’s still apparently an investigation.
Now that’s a good thing. But the more important recommendations, for example, the introduction of a constituency based electoral system. What Parliament did and we all know that the new Electoral Act is already in the Constitutional Court because there are parties that still believe that it’s unconstitutional.
Now Parliament had a good opportunity to look at the electoral system and how we vote, and they took the minority report of reports that they already did in Parliament. So it’s really, I don’t think we are unfair. I really think the question is, if state capture happens again today, will Parliament be able to stop it, and I must say the resounding answer is still no because what has changed in order to combat that in future, combat corruption and so on.
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JEREMY MAGGS: You would’ve seen that most of the recommendations by the Chief Justice were directed towards deficiency within law enforcement agencies, and that suggestions were made on how to recalibrate that. Parliament says in response that these are independent bodies, essentially their hands are tied, they can do nothing. Again, how do you see that?
STEFANIE FICK: I think that’s just sidestepping the issue. Isn’t it Parliament’s duty as the legislative arm to hold the executive to account. So if the police, and they can say whatever they want, I think South Africans feel the inadequacy of the police, the crime rate is through the roof.
So whose responsibility is this? Isn’t it then the executive and how did I hold the executive to account?
I think that Parliament tends to think that they are there to listen to presentations. The majority will make a decision and that’s it. It is not about that. It’s less about politics and more about the interest of South Africans. How can Parliament solve the problem of crime in this country, and if it’s not their responsibility, who on Earth’s responsibility is it?
JEREMY MAGGS: So what do you think the consequences of the delay in terms of implementing recommendations are and how do you believe, how does your organisation believe the process can be expedited?
STEFANIE FICK: Well, we always talk about political will. I think there needs to be a Parliamentary will in order to grab the bull by its horns and do something about the recommendations. Don’t take the recommendations as you are to blame… But take it in and look at it, do some introspection and realise, you have the duty, you have the constitutional duty to do some of these recommendations.
The longer they take, the risk of us being exposed to, yet again, something like state capture is grave, we cannot go through another state capture.
There will be nothing left of our beautiful South Africa and the South Africans. Economically already we are not in a good space. I think if we saw the courage, we need moral courage in Parliament in order to do the things that needs to be done. Whether there’s enough laws to say who should be appointed, that was not the recommendation. If Parliament took it to heart, they would realise, but get rid of the cadre deployment, but that will only be solved in court.
JEREMY MAGGS: I want to finish with one observation that Parliament made, and it was interesting, saying that there is no official mechanism to engage with the judiciary and that effort needs to be made to change that. I find that quite extraordinary.
STEFANIE FICK: Ja, it is, they don’t need anybody’s permission. Why don’t you make it happen? Why is it something that it appears to be something that you can solve it like tomorrow, just make it happen. I think there was a total misunderstanding and then again, I speak to the attitude of Parliament. Zondo going out saying that if state capture happens again, Parliament will not be able to stop it.
Don’t take that as there’s a separation of power and you’re encroaching on our powers. No, listen to what is being said and do something about it.
None of us are perfect and Parliament is definitely not perfect but take it to heart and do something that will be in the best interest, it’s about not the political parties, it’s about the best interest of South Africa and its people. Hopefully we will hear that there is a regular meeting between Parliament and the judiciary, the legislative arm, the executive arm, and the judiciary in order to have these types of discussions.
JEREMY MAGGS: Stefanie Fick, thank you very much indeed.
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